| My 1.6 k reg has a quite a lot of tappet noise on start up
for about 30 seconds. Is this normal or should I change the oil
and or grade? (12/99) |
| Wouldn't worry, is normal, cost you buckets to erradicate. Worse
in winter due to lower oil temperature. (12/99) |
|
Further to a query about "tappet" (HLA = Hydraulic Lash Adjuster)
noise yesterday, I found this on a 626/MX-6/Probe faq site. Most
of it (and certainly the bits about HLA noise) is entirely relevant
to MX-5's (except obviously the V6 aspects). The message is -
change your oil - I have always recommended doing it twice as
often as Mazda recommend! (And use a flush additive just before
changing)
Quote
"The valvetrain is the wear issue if oil is not regularly changed
and HLAs are allowed to remain noisy for 10,000s of miles. In
designing the valvetrain Mazda had a difficult balance to achieve:
hydraulic lash adjusters (HLAs) small enough to allow a 7500-7800rpm
redline without succumbing to valve-float or resorting to solid
tappets as Honda have to, yet HLAs large enough to resist collapse
& dirty oil. Whilst the V6 with very minor changes is capable
of over continuous 8900rpm from Ford testing in the US, dirty
oil is known to clog the small oil-control ball valve of HLAs
creating a characteristic tap-tap at idle if left untreated.
Initial HLA noise during cold engine startup is normal if only
for a short period. During startup the 24 HLAs are in varying
degrees of compression depending on where the 4 cams stopped at
shutdown. Those HLAs experiencing the greatest compression from
the cam lobe (against a 175lb/in spring) will take longer to pump
up at a cold-start compared to their less compressed counterparts,
compounded by the time between starts. HLA pump-up time is also
to a lesser extent dependent on where the HLAs are on the oil
path, with HLAs at the top left of the rear bank (cyl #1) taking
slightly longer. The use of centre-oiled cams (as favoured by
Porsche in race engines over spray-bar systems) helps to ensure
fast targeted oiling in both cold start & high-rpm conditions.
The actual mechanism of the noise from HLAs is a function of the
degree of lash between the cam lobe and HLA surface: when HLAs
are pumped up with clean oil & operating correctly they maintain
this lash at zero for all rpm (and thus achieving the self-adjusting
maintenance free operation of HLAs). "
End quote (6/00)
|
| What flush is recommended? I only saw WYNN's last time I was in
Halfords - will that be OK to use in a '5??? (6/00) |
|
Don't think the brand matters - I've used various sorts, including
Wynns and STP.
BTW - what it does is removes the coating of varnish which oil
leaves on surfaces - especially hot ones. It's like your chip
pan - if you clean it religiously every time you use it, you can
keep it spick and span. If you let that varnish-like coating build
up and bake on, you'll never get it clean. The inside of an engine
is very similar to a chip pan! The critical areas in the HLA are
the oil flow holes (which are very small), the ball valve and
the sliding surfaces.
There was a service bulletin issued in the US in about 91, where
people who complained about HLA noise could have ones with bigger
holes fitted. Part of the instructions were something like "Tell
people to change their oil on time". They didn't modify the ones
fitted in production, though.
IMHO, the maximum long term regular oil change interval for any
Mazda engine with HLA's is about 5000 miles. That's even if you
use synthetic oil, and regardless of whether the specified service
interval is 6000 or 9000 miles. The change to a longer interval
was largely for commercial reasons - Mazda couldn't be seen recommending
a much shorter service interval than was becoming fashionable.
Thing is, it's fine if you buy a new car and keep it for ~50000
miles - you're never going to have a significant problem just
sticking to the standard intervals. But if you're in the club
that buys 50000 milers and runs them for 150000 more miles..........
It's interesting that Mazda have given up this particular struggle,
at least with MX-5s.
Mk 2's don't have HLA's - they have solid tappets - presumably
with shim adjustment? Changing oil regularly is a lot easier!
All just my (often controversial) views, of course - comments
welcome! (6/00)
|
|
(And use a flush additive just before changing)
Can you advise the best stuff to use, where to get it, and how
to use it? My ignorance is total! (6/00)
|
| You probably saw my reply - Halfords sell Wynns (and often I think
STP). AFAIK any is perfectly adequate - there are quite a few brands
available.. You pour it into the oil filler (into the warm old oil)
and run the engine at idle for 10-15 minutes before draining the
old oil (including the flush stuff and dissolved varnish) Instructions
on the can! (6/00) |
| So on a 50k miler that's never been flushed should we start
flushing or not? (6/00) |
|
Well, that's a valid subject for debate, and I have seen it argued
that you shouldn't, because loosened debris might clog oil ways.
However, I don't go along with that. I think that these flushing
additives are pretty mild, and don't do much dislodging of debris
- rather they dissolve deposits. So yes - start flushing.
Years ago I bought a 626 (it was a SOHC engine with normal tappets).
The guy who had it before me bought it with a warranty that required
servicing at specified intervals ( I still have the book). He
had done 22000 miles in a year, never had it serviced at all (and
I could tell he hadn't touched it in that time), then sold it.
Now that's one way to run a car!
Apart from the varnish deposits, it had thick encrustations of
black carbon in the top of the cylinder head. I scraped at these,
got them mostly clean, and flushing agents removed the varnish.
Never had any problems in over 50000 miles, and sold it when I
got waylaid by a DOHC 626 GT. Did over 90000 in that, including
a head rebuild (compression was getting a bit iffy) at 160000
miles. The only head components needing replacement then were
two HLA's and 8 exhaust valve guides. (It was a great car - used
to surprise a lot of beemers. Not 540's, though ;-( ) I always
flush! ;-) (6/00)
|
|
Engine flushing continued...
From my local Mazda dealer Cost 7 less 10% = 6.30 +vat
Run car until hot - cooling fan comes on (good check as well),
Add to oil, run for 10 minutes, drain while hot (as you always
should - I leave it as long as possible too - 1.5 hours minimum).
FORTE motor flush Forte, 22 Mopedi Rd, Sebenza, Edenvale, Rep
of South Africa -
Cleans and frees piston rings - frees valves and hydraulic lifters
- removes sludge and varnish - cleans internals of engine - removes
harmful insolubles
Above is mostly pure marketing speak - you prove it!! (6/00)
|
| My California has noisy tappets. I believe the correct name
is HLA ?? The car is due its 45000 service in about 800 miles time.
Will a flush and oil change stop the clatter or should I request
that they do anything more specific to sort it (if it can be sorted
??) Noise doesn't go away when the engine is warmed up. (8/00) |
| When did you last check your oil, I had a similar noise problem
at about the same sort of mileage, when I checked the oil next I
found I didn't have any!! (8/00) |
|
Tappet noise on '5s is usually due to the HLA's being gummed
up. A flush might shift it - if it's in for long enough (15 minutes
at least). And make sure that 5W/40 or 5W/50 fully synthetic oil
is used.
If that doesn't stop it, you could try adding half a litre of
synthetic ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) to the engine for
a day, drive 100 miles then change the oil. Unconventional, so
at your own risk! ATF is very refined oil, and has a good flushing
action. The source of this idea is Bob Hall - don't know where
he got it from. I'll repeat what I've said in the past - I regard
oil changes twice as often as Mazda recommend (ie 3000 - 4500
miles) as well worth while on Mazda engines which use HLA's with
very tight tolerances.
A little bit of gum (which you get anyway with time, and more
quickly with short journeys) makes the HLA's clatter. This applies
even if you use synthetic oil. It doesn't apply necessarily to
MK 2's which use solid tappets, but more frequent oil changes
are a good thing anyway.
It is just possible that you've got one or more faulty ones,
but it'll be a relatively expensive operation to get them out
to check. (Involves removing the camshafts) (8/00)
|
| Ive got a problem and have no idea whats wrong , I started
her up this morning and drove off but to my horror and embarrasment
she sounded like a diesel for the first mile and a half !!! Its
a 91 UK with 59000 on the clock . Any theories / remedies would
be greatly appreciated ! (8/00) |
| My Polo did this the other day, it turned out two of the four
plug leads had gone, so it was running on two cylinders! It was
VERY obvious though by the lack of power and complete racket the
thing was making. If it is your plug leads or plugs then change
them str8 away, the unburnt fuel will be going into your cat and
doing it no end of damage (afaik). (8/00) |
| I had this on the first Lincs run and had swap back to my original
plug leads on route. Probably them. If your feeling flush get a
set of Magnacores (about 60 with OC discount if member) you won't
believe the difference. (8/00) |
| I changed the plug leads last month no probs till now . could
it be anything else ? (8/00) |
| Fit new plug leads ASAP. If you can't get any immediately pull
the leads and mop up any water on/around plugs. Driving with the
car in this condition overheats the cat and can toast it. (8/00) |
| Q: Had you moved the car back and forth a few times before this
happened? I've heard elsewhere that doing this (e.g. quick stop/starts
maybe as part of the hand-wash routine, in/out pf garage) can cause
the HLAs to get their knickers in a twist. Next time you start the
car the whole plot is somewhat confused. (8/00) |
| BTDT HLA clatter from hell. This was when the car hadn't been
run for a couple of weeks and then did a couple of garage shuffles
of a few yards. (8/00) |
| This is almost certainly the infamous HLA clatter - dont worry
about it if it goes away after a couple of minutes. When you get
the car serviced next, have them do an engine flush and it might
help for a while. They all do it to a greater or lesser extent -
as I understand it, when the car's been sitting (especially on a
slope) the oil drains to the bottom of the engine - when you start
it up it takes time for the oil to reach the parts that matter.
The effect is worse when it's cold i.e. winter. My car (now 77,000
miles old) has been doing this since about 40,000 miles. You should
only really worry if it does it all the time - even when the engine
is fully up to temperature. (8/00) |
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