| Got the car MOT'ed this morning and it failed on
only one count the emissions. Apparently the car is running rich
in the extreme - the CO2 output was just over 8%!!!! The garage
are taking it back in and they are going to start by replacing the
02 sensor - is the likely cause?? and if not the CAT. The car is
a 1990 with 95k on the clock so it is no spring chicken but at the
same time it should pass the emission even without the CAT - anyone
any ideas? Thanks! (3/00) |
| Try the engine temp sensor (3/00) |
| Spooky. My car failed today too. 91 Roadster 60k miles and Jackson
CAI and 14degrees timing. My CO2 was 7.99. Any ideas people ? (3/00) |
|
Are plugs, ignition wires, airfilter, O2 sensor and ignition
timing ok? If so, the problem might be related to the relocated
airflow meter on the CAI. The orientation of the flapper door
is changed, and thus gravity might help to simulate a greater
airflow than the real airflow.
To correct this, either more unmetered air has to be allowed
past the AFM - this can be done by adjusting the bypass screw
on the AFM, or the spring tension on the AFM needs adjustment
- a rather tricky procedure which involves taking the sealed cover
off the spring mechanism. In my case at the last "MOT", more bypass
air was the key to proper readings.
IIRC, too high CO2 readings can also be due to carbon build-up.
I heard this can be cured by slowly feeding water or water mixed
with brake fluid into the intake tract (running engine). Never
tried it myself, though. I have also no idea what this treatment
might do to the catalytic converter. (3/00)
|
| O2 sensor is a possible, but if the ECU sees really bad signals
it uses a default map. Is the car generating any fault codes? It
could also be engine temp. sensor, air flow meter temp. sensor,
etc. Running a sensor check before starting to replace them make
far more sense. You can do it yourself with a meter and a bit of
wire, but you need the RGEM and also
the ECU diagnostic book from Donutz
to make it a bit easier. (3/00) |
|
Jjust MHO but I don't think this garage understand emissions
technology.
The O2 sensor doesn't have that much effect on overall CO (CO
- not CO2 - CO2 is what you want - even if "2 jags" doesn't) -
it adjusts things second by second. But even with a completely
non-operative O2 sensor, CO emissions won't exceed about 2.5%
worst case (and more likely 1.5%) - so long as the rest of the
engine tuning is OK.
A cat is NEVER required to get a pre 92 MX5 through the appropriate
emissions test - the limits are 3.5% CO and 1000ppm hydrocarbons.
And if your cat is shot, replacing it won't have much effect -
they're not magic - can only reduce CO by a small amount, like
1.5% to zero. And if the tuning problem has caused your cat to
fail, the new one will go the same way PDQ.
You have to cure your basic tuning problem (basically overfuelling)
- it may be a temperature (input air or water) sensor, plugs,
plug leads (if they haven't been replaced recently that's what
I'd suspect) or something more obtuse.
Good luck - you need a tuner who understands his equipment! BTW
- the O2 sensor and the cat are about the two most expensive items
in the system (except the ECU - heaven forbid) - and neither are
needed for your emissions test. (3/00)
|
|
BTW - the O2 sensor and the cat are about the two most
expensive items in the system.
Only true if you pay Mazda prices. I have bought both single
and 4 wire O2 sensors locally for £30 and £45 respectively. They
were both Lucas brand and fit and work like a charm. I understand
the Mazda price for a single wire sensor is £120 or the like.
(3/00)
|
| Following on from my emissions failure yesterday, everyone seems
to agree that it is very unlikley to be the 02 sensor that is causing
my problem. There does seems to be some growing evidence that it
may well be the air flow meter. The AFM on the CAI is turned on
its side and this maybe giving false readings. Anyone else had this
type of problem with the JR CAI - might send a e-mail to jackson
racing and see if they can shed some light on the issue. Possible?
(3/00) |
| Car is fixed. Apparently the air flow meter was broken. How will
I know that the garage haven't fleeced me instead of fixing it ?
I don't . Am I past caring ? Yes. Cost ? 125 + 2 hours labour =
195 quid!!! (3/00) |
|
You can get your Mazda garage to check the AFM resistance to
see if they match the open/close resistance. Don't know if they
have accurate resistance figures listed but this would be the
easiest elimination of a possible cause to overfueling...But then
again we are talking about greedy garages. I have a slight suspicion
that they already know that the AFM could be the major the cause
but have decided to get more money by "playing" around with stuff
that takes maximum effort with minimal effects ;-)
And if the problem is the AFM positioning.....
The message above about adjusting the bypass screw is correct
but please don't try removing the siliconed panel and adjusting
the internals. No-one touches the internals except....
(a)AFM manufacturer (Loads of money and either speaks Japanese
or German only)
(b) Auto electrician who specialises in AFMs and has worked on
the MX5 AFM before. (Loadsa money and speaks so much technical
jargon that he might as well be speaking Japanese or German)
The panel is siliconed for a reason ;-) If you try to adjust
yourself or let a mechanic with no experience dealing with AFM
meters have a go, you may damage the AFM and a replacement one
from Mazda would be well over 350 GBP!!! I sell mine
for 100GBP but this isn't the point. Why replace something that
might not need replacing. Your options are....
(1) Adjust bypass screw ( remember to mark position before you
start adjusting just in case) If this isn't enough to do the job
go to option 2
(2) Turn the AFM angle to as close to OEM position and see if
it alters the emissions and if it does work a bit, use option
(1) to try and get emissions lower. Pulling hair out time if this
doesn't work so go to option 3
(3) Remove the CAI temporarily and position the AFM back to OEM
position. If you're lucky, you might get away with it and the
AFM will perform as OEM. If you're not lucky and the emissions
are still slightly out, use option (1) to get emissions lower.
Another thing, you'll be wasting your money on another AFM if
you're keeping the CAI, the same symptoms may appear again later
on. Either get rid of the CAI or find a way of adjusting the AFM
positioning to OEM state with CAI or you can play with the AFM-ECU
signal.
No-one modifies the internals of a good working AFM to alter
signals, there's too much of a chance of damaging delicate and
sensitive mechanical parts. You can play around with the Airflow
via external gadgets such as electronic Airflow controllers which
takes the signals from the AFM and adjusts them to fool the ECU
into either richening or leaning the fuel mixture. Quite a good
mod even if you don't have fuelling probs as you can adjust the
Airflow settings at certain rev ranges (need a rolling road to
get best results). If the AFM positioning is causing the ECU to
overfuel and you want to keep the CAI, buying the Airflow controller
may be the way to go BUT.... it all depends how much your current
AFM signals are out by. Although it gives a broader adjustment
than the bypass screw, like all things in life, the Airflow controller
still has it's limits. Then again....you could always add a electronic
fuel controller to lean out even further. Starting to get a bit
complicated for 3:30 am in the morning ;-) (3/00)
|
|
To do this is of course a bit difficult, because not everybody
has access to a source of a 5V reference signal.
.. is this not what the ECU provides .. never played with the
AFM but the throttle, cam pickups etc are all supplied from a
5V (or close) reference signal. (3/00)
|
|
You can get your Mazda garage to check the AFM resistance
to see if they match the open/close resistance. Don't know if
they have accurate resistance figures listed but this would be
the easiest elimination of a possible cause to overfueling.
A small addition: The resistance values will not say much about
the proper function of the AFM. They are all over the place if
you move the flapper door from closed to fully open, generating
a sawtooth like pattern over the range of movement. A better test
is to check this: (From Randy Stockers extremely recommendable
web-site:
The 1.6 OEM flapper door flow meter potentiometer measures 3.5
volts at idle and graduates linearly to 0 volts at WOT with a
5 volt reference signal.
To do this is of course a bit difficult, because not everybody
has access to a source of a 5V reference signal.
I do agree with the warnings about opening the AFM. I would not
recommend doing it without having a spare handy. Yet I know of
several people who have successfully adjusted the spring tension
when they swapped the 1.6 AFM for an early RX-7 unit (check Randys
page for why and how). http://members.aol.com/solomiata/
I will try that myself when I try to combine an early RX-7 AFM
with the JR CAI this spring. (3/00)
|
| 1994 1.8 Roadster. Failed on the basic idle test with a CO
of .80 when the max is .50. Everything fine on fast idle with mid-
way reading for CO and lambda. Car has had new plugs, air & oil
filters and oil change. Any suggestions gratefully received! (11/00) |
| Idle speed ?? (11/00) |
| Sorry missed the word Roadster first time round. Why are they
checking it for emissions ?? (11/00) |
| Probably plug leads. But I would appeal on the basis that your
car has been tested as an MX5 when it's not. There is no entry in
the MoT computer for a Eunos Roadster. So it gets tested (or should
do) against different standards - and the CO limit is 3.5%. (and
HC 1200ppm) (11/00) |
|
Not knowing _anything_ about this subject and so having an exceptionally
wild stab in the dark..
Perhaps it has had it's cat taken out (what year was it again?)
and as it is being tested as a 5 (and not as a Roadster) then
it is subsequently failing...?
(Once had a 92 1.1 Metro that I had stuck a 16v badge on the
back, and as it had the badge the numbskulls that MOT's it thought
it was failing everything as they were testing it as a 1.4 16v
(you can't get a 1.1 16v Metro to start with) I had to tell them
what it was - worrying!) (11/00)
|
| Try a different MOT station? (11/00) |
| Being a 94 the car needs a cat. Although it has got a trick 4
branch manifold (Jasma), the lambda sensor is in place and the rest
of the exhaust system looks standard. I did notice that the water
temp runs a little under half way on the gauge. I will try replacing
the thermostat and see if this makes a difference. It could be that
that management system is noting the engine is cold and richening
the mixture. Will also get the lambda sensor tested. The car is
going for an SVA test so will contact
the ministry to see what limits they use. (11/00) |
| Sorry - I must have missed something. Why is a 94 going for a
SVA? IMHO only cars <3 years need SVA (until early next year). (11/00) |
| Why are you getting a 94 car SVA'd?? Surely it just adds cost
to the purchase and gives you no benefit as the owner. JASMA is
the Japanese Automobile Sports Muffler Association and the Jasma
sign on the manifold is similar to our Kite mark or Type approval.
Jasma is not the manufacturer. I'd be suspicious of the plug leads
even if the car appears to be running correctly. Try borrowing a
set and seeing if it passes then. (11/00) |
| If the car is under 10 years old and is not a personal import,
it has to be SVA tested. However, there is only a small quota of
cars allowed to go through this route, and I'm sure that the Eunos
Roadster quota was all used up ages ago. (11/00) |
| Ah - but a to qualify as a personal import it would seem that
you just have to take a day trip to France. (11/00) |
| You can voluntarily submit any car for SVA. Then your non e-marked
lights, seatbelts, glass etc become legal. If you don't have an
SVA certificate, they're not. But I don't understand why anyone
would bother? (11/00) |
| Indeed. But you were saying that only cars < 3 years old need
to be SVA tested. If a car under 10 years old is commercially imported
(ie. not a personal import), it cannot be registered without an
SVA test. With an SVA certificate (and an MOT), the car can then
be registered to anyone. In some cases it is more cost effective
for an importer to pay for the SVA test, rather than pay for a trip
to France (and the time involved). (11/00) |
| Yeah, it would be worth trying a different MOT station. This time
last year I had a 1994 1.8 Hyundai Lantra (don't laugh, it beat
the XR3i and Nova boys easy on performace). I took it for its MOT
and it too failed like yours and I was told I needed to replace
the CAT. For one of those cars I was quoted about £700. Yikes indeed!!
I got a second opinion from an 'old fashioned' mechanic who took
one look at the Emmisions read out and pointed out that the CAT
wasn't warm enough. Apparantly when they get about 5 years old the
CATs can need to get REALLY hot before they work properly. A good
blast down a dual carrageway and then a check passed the car fine!!!!
The original garage had left my car out on the forecourt all afternoon
then pulled it into the garage with the engine just warm and the
CAT fairly cold. (11/00) |
| I imported the car myself and hence why it needs SVA. The quotas
were abolished and so SVA is the easier route. I intend to replace
the thermostat and see what difference that makes. The garage guys
are actually friends and help when they can. Thank you for all the
help and advice! (11/00) |
| The temperature gauge is very inaccurate .. it sits somewhere
around 11.30 to 12.30 all day whatever the temperature .. more likely
is a slightly not so clever cat ... get it hot maybe.. not sure..
but the thermostat is really unlikely.. ... the real trick is to
ask them where the car is listed in their MOTs emissions computer
.. it is not an Mazda MX5 .. so they SHOULD keep scanning until
the last line which is 'Unlisted cars' which is wide open and you
pasted .. this is what I was told by DVLC but it does have a slight
pit fall .. if they look at the engine number first it has the BP8A
code on it .. this is in their computer so you fail .. it is all
down to interpretations... .. you can talk MOTs .. but SVA may not
take this view - I would ask questions. (11/00) |
| Following the failure I replaced the thermostat. I also spoke
to one of the mechanics at the local Mazda dealers. He said that
they had had a couple of cars failing and put it down to being driven
around town too much. He also said that the cars tend to run a little
below mid way on the temp gauge. I got the engine nice and warm
and took it for blast along the local bypass and then straight back
to the test station. Result - passed well within limits! (11/00) |
| |